(OUTDATED) siege_jhoth1a

Discuss siege map projects.
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j3rk
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(OUTDATED) siege_jhoth1a

Post by j3rk »

OUTDATED, SEE siege_jhoth1b THREAD FOR DOWNLOAD AND INFOS
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Roflraptor
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Roflraptor »

Looks very nice. If there's one thing that probably needed changing in Cargo, it was the last obj. You could let a team through every other obj, then hold them comfortably at the last one.

Easter egg: Perhaps something along the lines of a secret room with a shrine to some odd creature or object in JKA (like a wampa or the codes unit).
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Duo
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Duo »

The graphics look great, but as we all know graphics don't determine whether or not a map has solid gameplay.

A very minor tweak to Cargo I would like would be to completely redo it so it's not all a bunch of tiny ass spammable hallways. Good maps have open spaces that are not oblong spam hallways.

Also, make it so the mere location of the defense spawns doesn't make the objectives megastacked for the defense. Classic example = last objective, the offense has to run across the whole map, through three different ridiculously easily spammable/campable chokepoints, and past the defense spawn in a narrow hallway in order to do the objective.

An interesting note is that in the early test versions of my map, I had placed the defense spawns considerably farther away from the objectives in the hopes of not creating another Cargoesque megastack. In our test pugs, we found that the spawns were actually too far away to the point where the map was megastacked in favor of the offense(3 minute rounds, lol). So I had to counter-intuitively move the spawns a bit closer to the objectives. It's all about testing. If you looked at an overhead layout of my map, a couple of the objectives might seem stacked, based sheerly on where the spawns are located. However, there are a lot more factors as to what determines a good or bad spawn location. As long as you test it in actual gameplay you can know what's good and what's bad.

I think in general, a map should be slightly stacked for the defense enough to allow for a hold, but not in the sense that you can just rape the offense with spam -- slightly stacked in other ways. A perfectly 50/50 map would be very short. That's what I found out in our test pugs of my map.

Oh yeah, and don't take suggestions for the easter egg, because then it's not funny.

This is my research I did a while ago as to what makes good objectives:

Code: Select all

analysis of siege objectives
hoth
didn't include walker objectives because they are fundamentally different
bridge: having the other guys come to you from a distance
      pushing reborn boss into the pit
      *defending people in an open area
      *importance of shield
      *large area to snipe
codes:   *defending people in an open area
      *camping the obj room
      big space to mine
      returning codes on lift
hangar:   *killing people after they come out of a door
      *importance of shield
      *good obstacles/cover
      *gunners can do the obj
cc:      *open area(with cover from which to kill inc o dudes)
      side way to ninja it
      way for d to save the obj
      *you can dominate the d after they spawn if you control the area
      *you can camp the obj room
      *gunners can do the obj
      *good obstacles/cover

desert
didn't include parts because it sucks
wall:   *large area to snipe
      enclosed places to kill dudes
station:choice of where to guard
      option of turning on turrets
      *defending people in an open area
      *gunners can do the obj
arena:   *large area to snipe
      *gunners can do the obj
      *defending people in an open area
      camping the obj from the back of the next obj
      
cargo
1st:   bad: corridors to kill people in
      *you can camp the obj room
      bad: everyone on d has to be dead to do the obj
2nd:   *large area to snipe
      bad: ramp-based combat
      bad: an important alt route to guard
3rd:   bad: an important alt route to guard
      the launch as a gameplay element
      *gunners can do the obj
4th:   bad: corridors to kill people in
5th:   bad: everyone on d has to be dead to do the obj

didn't include korriban because it's fundamentally different

good recurring elements:
defending an open area(bridge, codes main entrance, codes outside, infirmary, stations, arena)
good obstacles and cover(bridge, hangar, cc)
large area to snipe(bridge, cc, wall, arena, cargo 2nd)
killing people after they come out of a door(codes both doors, hangar, stations)
being able to dominate the defense if you control their spawn area(codes, cc)
gunners being able to do the objs (hangar, cc, stations, arena, cargo 3rd)
the importance of whether or not there's a shield up or if the jan has a shield (bridge, codes, hangar)
being able to camp the obj room(codes,cc,cargo 1st)

bad recurring elements:
having to have the entire defense dead in order to do the obj(cargo 1st, 5th, and 2nd if wook trick is forbidden)
having to have a guy camp an important alt route(cargo 1st, 3rd, and 2nd if wook trick is allowed). this is normally caused by an alt route being placed too far from the main area to be defended normally.
having the combat be too corridor-based(including ramps) (cargo 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

a few unique elements(can be good or bad depending on context):
ninja route(cc)
turrets(hangar)
turning on turrets(stations)
emplaced guns
a shortcut for the d to save the obj(cc)
launch(but usually bad because implies a gay alt route that a dude has to guard)
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j3rk
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by j3rk »

That's a lot of super detailed, good info. Some of your ideas would probably be better suited for a total overhaul though, which would no longer be cargo. This was supposed to be cargo with a face lift and minor tweaks but I'll try to incorporate some of your more simple-to-implement ideas. Good call on the easter egg too.
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Laser
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Laser »

Duo just wrote what I would basically say, cargo 2nd and last are completely terrible objectives. Wook trick actually saves the whole map imo, because you could easily hold for a VERY long time on 2nd without it, and then I don't even need to talk about the last objective.

Graphics look 'the works' as usual J3rk :)
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GUARD!AN
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by GUARD!AN »

Make a secret hall of fame room for all your favorite siegers and put their names on the wall :)
GUARD!AN

–noun
1. guarding; protecting: a guardian deity.
2. a violent, tropical, cyclonic storm of the western North Atlantic, having wind
speeds of or in excess of 72 mph (32 m/sec).
3. (in Gnosticism) one of a class of powers or beings conceived as emanating
from the Supreme Being and performing various functions in the operations of
the universe.
4. a terrifying dream in which the dreamer experiences feelings of helplessness,
extreme anxiety, sorrow, etc.
5. The sensation and muscular spasm caused by an electric current passing
through the body or a body part.

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Wufei Chang
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Wufei Chang »

cargo with hoth theme....might as well call it echo base?

looks good though
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Duo
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Duo »

Dude commenting on maps for a gametype he doesn't play
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Turky
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Re: siege_cargoth

Post by Turky »

Duo wrote:Dude commenting on maps for a game he doesn't play
fixed
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Kerafym
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Re: jhoth download (formerly cargoth)

Post by Kerafym »

Are you against the idea of possibly making a few class changes to enhance the general gameplay of the map?

Also, you should add a tarp over the 2nd obj entrance so defense can't archi the door or landown entire teams. I'm serious.
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