Siege Mapping Discussion

Discuss siege map projects.
Maximus
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Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Maximus »

Seeing the activity in the community here (such as it is), specifically the modding and mapping activity, inspired me to think about mapping again.

I'm going to approach this with things I've learned at my job, project engineering management type things (I'm not a manager yet but I work with them every day). Things such as, but not limited to: find or build a business case, conduct feasibility studies, line up resources, define a scope of work, plan/schedule/budget, identify external drivers, identify risks and mitigations, define a development process, get buy-in from stakeholders (most importantly the customers), and develop a test plan.

I've done a little preliminary investigation already. Before I invest significant time into any further activity, I'm going to get two primary questions answered.

1.Is there a market for custom siege maps? I'm not going to put months of work into something only 7 people will ever play. I'm referring to “good” siege maps, ones that in one sense deserve to be played, but aren't. If this market does not currently exist, can it be created? (There's precedent for this – MovieBattles 2. Like it or not, it's one of the reasons this game still makes the top 50 most played on Xfire.) Is there anything that can be done to increase the appeal of a map?

2.What defines a “good” siege map? This refers to all aspects, but far and away the most important is the playability perspective as specific to the siege gametype. Location, location, location, also timing, class balance, objective type, performance, hazards, cover, tactics, and also location. Visuals are somewhere around dead last in importance in this regard – the base maps are pretty bland, but Hoth accounts for 60% (random guess) of pug games in the past 2 years by itself.

In the next week I'll try to expand on these topics and get as much feedback as I can. This is where I need the input of the community. Duo has made a great deal of progress in regard to studying the base maps and why they're appealing (or not appealing). I intend to take this further, stimulate some discussion, and see what falls out.

Associated random thoughts:

1. Siege has bugs, they need to get fixed. Server crash bug with /say overflow, slot 0 no heal, EOF custom classes, swoop bug, those are just the ones off the top of my head. I think j3rk covers most of these in ESM. I think the EOF error associated with too many classes has been holding back custom map adoption. People just can't be bothered to go swapping pk3's in and out of base every round.

2. Someone should think about an installer/uninstaller for a custom map pack. There must be some freeware/open source installer maker that can write stuff to C:\Program Files (x86 for 64 bit). Heck an adequately written bat file would work. Say pick the top x number of maps, put in a mature version of ESM. Call it the Ultimate Siege Expansion Pack or whatever. Post it to Filefront, run that in the MOTD on Tempest, have the admins broadcast an ad once per round, etc. Since Guard owns both Tempest and Tempest Customs, we don't have to worry about turf wars.

P.S. If you don't have anything constructive to stay, stay out of this thread. You have the rest of the boards to post useless spam. I will ask the mods to delete any posts that are off topic.
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Turky
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Turky »

Sure there's a market for customs. We still pug, and we don't even pug on desert. Not everyone likes cargo but we pug it anyway... and korriban gets old after one long round usually (whereas we'll stay on cargo or hoth for map after map).

So we need more *good* custom maps.
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Laser
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Laser »

An installable map pack would be absolutely fantastic.

I think it's important for the creator of a map to push the map into the pug community, so you would have to pug regularly and keep suggesting it. Cargo is played often so why not bobmap?
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Maximus
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Maximus »

The installer pack I'm anticipating would be to encourage more custom map pubs than anything. Anyone with the pug pass should already have at least cargo, and if they can handle installing one, they can handle installing more.

The installer just works with the general principle that if something takes more than about 1 minute, 80% of people won't be bothered. MB2 has a nice straightforward installer, I figured why not siege customs.
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j3rk
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by j3rk »

I like the way you think dude. I think the filesize of a map is important too. That's something I've never really focused on with my maps but I'm planning on rolling a couple of new maps (small filesize, base assets-only) into ESM with the release-after-next. I think the best chance a custom Siege map has these days is being included with a (decent) mod release, which speaks to your thoughts on MB2's success. If you want to include a map with an ESM release, the more the merrier IMO. That's one of the motivating factors for me starting ESM, not just for the gameplay/bug enhancements alone.

P.S. One correction - Tempest Customs is Nub's server not Guard's, but your turf war statement still applies I'm sure. I may run an "official" ESM server at some point as well, but it's all for the same cause so I'm sure there won't be any problems.
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Max Rambone
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Max Rambone »

All great ideas...

The one thing I can think of off the top of my head that SHOULD be pretty straight-forward is to make some custom maps where at least one objective can be 'undone' by the defense.

This is something that nearly every ETQW map has and, I'm sure, other games.

Like a charge that has to be planted and takes 20 seconds to blow in which the defense has time to disarm. Or something that has to be 'repaired.'

Also, some objectives that have to be 'hacked' stay hacked to whatever degree the team got it to before being killed, but it will reset to zero hacked after, say, 20 seconds. To me, it seems you could do this in a way similar to the crystals returning on korri or the codes on hoth. I think cargo would have been much better if the lift door at the comm array could be hacked this way. (Anyone wanna see if they can fix that?) Oh, and hoth would be better if you could hack the side door at the hangar this way!!! Would slightly alleviate the midget door and field spam.

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Maximus
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Maximus »

Here's an important question: does the Tempest Custom server host (assuming ET) allow downloads for servers? If so I'm thinking along the same lines as you guys - small map sizes (<5MB), using 90%+ base assets, relatively low detail and complexity. For reference, cargo is only 1.2MB if you remove the custom music (1.7MB). The bsp is 5MB but apparently it compresses pretty well. We still have the EOF problem for custom classes...
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j3rk
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by j3rk »

Tempest custom isn't hosted by a third party company. Nub has full control/access to everything on the server.
Max Rambone wrote:The one thing I can think of off the top of my head that SHOULD be pretty straight-forward is to make some custom maps where at least one objective can be 'undone' by the defense.
I think a couple of my maps have some objectives like this. I'm pretty sure the "House of p!ng" one does, one of the Geonosis versions and maybe the USM. I've always liked this mechanic though and I agree with you.
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Duo
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Duo »

Code: Select all

analysis of siege objectives
hoth
didn't include walker objectives because they are fundamentally different
bridge: having the other guys come to you from a distance
		pushing reborn boss into the pit
		*defending people in an open area
		*importance of shield
		*large area to snipe
codes:	*defending people in an open area
		*camping the obj room
		big space to mine
		returning codes on lift
hangar:	*killing people after they come out of a door
		*importance of shield
		*good obstacles/cover
		*gunners can do the obj
cc:		*open area(with cover from which to kill inc o dudes)
		side way to ninja it
		way for d to save the obj
		*you can dominate the d after they spawn if you control the area
		*you can camp the obj room
		*gunners can do the obj
		*good obstacles/cover

desert
didn't include parts because it sucks
wall:	*large area to snipe
		enclosed places to kill dudes
station:choice of where to guard
		option of turning on turrets
		*defending people in an open area
		*gunners can do the obj
arena:	*large area to snipe
		*gunners can do the obj
		*defending people in an open area
		camping the obj from the back of the next obj
		
cargo
1st:	bad: corridors to kill people in
		*you can camp the obj room
		bad: everyone on d has to be dead to do the obj
2nd:	*large area to snipe
		bad: ramp-based combat
		bad: an important alt route to guard
3rd:	bad: an important alt route to guard
		the launch as a gameplay element
		*gunners can do the obj
4th:	bad: corridors to kill people in
5th:	bad: everyone on d has to be dead to do the obj

didn't include korriban because it's fundamentally different

good recurring elements:
defending an open area(bridge, codes main entrance, codes outside, infirmary, stations, arena)
good obstacles and cover(bridge, hangar, cc)
large area to snipe(bridge, cc, wall, arena, cargo 2nd)
killing people after they come out of a door(codes both doors, hangar, stations)
being able to dominate the defense if you control their spawn area(codes, cc)
gunners being able to do the objs (hangar, cc, stations, arena, cargo 3rd)
the importance of whether or not there's a shield up or if the jan has a shield (bridge, codes, hangar)
being able to camp the obj room(codes,cc,cargo 1st)

bad recurring elements:
having to have the entire defense dead in order to do the obj(cargo 1st, 5th, and 2nd if wook trick is forbidden)
having to have a guy camp an important alt route(cargo 1st, 3rd, and 2nd if wook trick is allowed). this is normally caused by an alt route being placed too far from the main area to be defended normally.
having the combat be too corridor-based(including ramps) (cargo 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

a few unique elements(can be good or bad depending on context):
ninja route(cc)
turrets(hangar)
turning on turrets(stations)
emplaced guns
a shortcut for the d to save the obj(cc)
launch(but usually bad because implies a gay alt route that a dude has to guard)
I think a map has to be simple enough to allow for the gameplay to create the interest(not the map itself.) People are interested in playing the video game, not in interesting things in the map. Hoth is boring as shit as a map by itself, but when you add in the players it's fun. Since a map needs to be simple to a degree, the reward of making some objectives won't be immediately apparent to the maker.

However, it has to be complex enough to allow for lots of replay value. "Complex" in this sense doesn't refer to having 18 different alt routes and random windows and ammo rooms and shit, but complex in the same way that a map like de_dust2 gets its longevity by having a lot of room to do different strategies and approaches.

I think blocking in the basic architecture of the map in single-color blocks is one of the best things to do, because if you can make something that is interesting and replayable out of just the bare skeleton of the map, when you add the prettiness it will not just be a pretty thing to look at, but also still fun to play. If we replaced every texture on Hoth with a single shade of grey, it would still be fun to play.
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Laser
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Re: Siege Mapping Discussion

Post by Laser »

Korriban is a bad map because of its predictability, I usually know exactly how the defence and offence are going to set up for every different objective, and the crystals are just stupid objectives that we can spend 20+ minutes trying to complete, and it's usually just a bit of luck like someone SKing at a bad time or simply killing the chewie.

So yeah, we don't need another korriban.
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