My 3 Cents
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 pm
I was going to write something in response to Maximus on the abortion and healthcare debate but I couldn't find where it was in the old topic.
So I'm starting a new one and writing about homosexuality as previously suggested by Ceasar? I can't really remember clearly. I must be getting old. Anyway, I swear I'm still waiting to see Maximus's long list of reasons why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. He's said he'd post it like 2-3 times on this forum and on RCB's, when we had one. Unfortunately, he never seems to get around to it. I get too busy to keep writing these myself, or am just lazy and want to chill out rather than do anything some days.
So onto MY list of reasons homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry and the weaknesses of each argument.
1. God says no.
Problem #1:
I haven't heard from God lately, have you? Maybe you should get scanned for a brain tumor. But seriously, we don't have his word we have...
2. The Bible says its an abomination.
Problem #1:
The Bible is a book written by man and transcribed and translated by man from the word of God. Therefore, it is bound to be full of the failings of man. Some of those are simple errors in transcription and translation. Others are failures in our knowledge of the world in which we live. An example would be bats being included as a type of bird or avian rather than as flying mammals. Search Leviticus and Deuteronomy for this. Also, knowing man I wouldn't put it beyond anyone to have introduced a few things to the good book on their own. We should be aware that the Bible was assembled from a collection of texts many years after the death of Christ. Some early versions contain books that never entered the mainstream while others were left out entirely.
Problem #2:
Modern science seems indicate that the origin of homosexuality is biological in nature. This would mean you just are or you aren't homosexual. This would make one think that it is likely God made them that way. This would then lead a rational person to wonder why God would make humans who are abominations and then demand that they be other than what he made them and that we should hate/persecute them for being what they are. Maybe he really just doesn't like some people or maybe this is just one of those parts like the bat. I'm sorry, I mean bird.
Problem #3:
Logic also seems to indicate homosexuality is not a choice since no rational person would choose to be homosexual given that they are horribly persecuted.
3. The institution of marriage is under attack and will no longer be what it is supposed to be, between a man and a woman.
Problem #1:
It used to be between one man and multiple women according to the Bible. So obviously the institution has changed in the few thousand years its been around. Although I still think there are a few Mormons and some Muslims that are trying to revive the old ways. There may have even been an African culture in which women had multiple husbands!
Problem #2:
Divorce is a new thing too. I think Henry the VIII started it. Something about loping off the heads of his wives. So yet again the instution doth change.
Problem #3:
Ok, we'll grant you that marriage between some people won't be the same i.e. a lot of gay men and some lesbians getting married, man:man, woman:woman type stuff will definitely be new.The institution still has its basic features even between homosexual couples. They look after each other, care for one another in sickness and in health, love each other, raise children together, and still get divorced on occasion. It doesn't constitute an attack on anyone else's marriage or the basic idea of marriage. The only thing that changes is the homogenization of the sexes between the couples. My parents aren't any less married just because some Mormons marry more than one wife. Neither are they any less married because two men or two women get hitched.
4. Gay marriage will deteriorate or otherwise crap on the fabric of society leading it into a cesspool of immorality.
Problem #1:
Immorality is variable between religions. Hence why multiple wives is frowned upon outside of certain Mormon and Muslim sects. It still doesn't mean they are any less married. Heck, a lot of inlaws frown upon their daughter and son inlaws marriages. They might even be freaking out that they had a Hindu wedding or a Jewish wedding. It doesn't make them any less married either. Since immorality is subjective, as well as wedding ceremonies, it makes sense to say this is a problem some people have WITH gay marriage rather than a problem of gay marriage. Probably because of their own religious beliefs. Gay marriage itself therefore can't actually cause immorality because it isn't the one that owns the problem.
Problem #2:
I'm not going to become gay just because other people are doing it. Are you? I don't think so. So how exactly is it supposed to lead the rest of us into a cesspool of immorality?
5. Its not real love or God doesn't recognize it as marriage.
Problem #1:
Since we have no objective way to determine what love is we'll just have to take their word for it. I can't tell if you really love someone either.
Problem #2:
What qualifications does a marriage have to have in order to be recognized by God? Do I have to have a priest? Then all the people who go to the justice of the peace aren't real marriages. Does it have to be a traditional ceremony of some sort? Then Hindu, Muslim, and pagan marriages are out.
Problem #3:
Zues, Shiva, and the Great Spirit might feel otherwise about your marriage too. In order to say someone's marriage isn't real you first have to have the right deity and from the looks of it you have a 1 in a few thousand chance of getting that right let alone knowing what that deity actually thinks. Don't you just love the complexity of ancient pantheons?
6. Gay marriages aren't good for the kids.
Problem #1:
Being gay or lesbian does not mean you automatically abuse children sexually or otherwise. So there is nothing bad going to happen to the kids in that way that couldn't also happen in a heterosexual marriage.
Problem #2:
Research on issues regarding the development of children in same sex households is very limited so one is making this claim without any proof.
Now that I've put forth some of the arguments I've heard on the subject maybe some of the one man one woman supporters out there can try and plug the holes and come up with an argument that actually adds up.
So I'm starting a new one and writing about homosexuality as previously suggested by Ceasar? I can't really remember clearly. I must be getting old. Anyway, I swear I'm still waiting to see Maximus's long list of reasons why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. He's said he'd post it like 2-3 times on this forum and on RCB's, when we had one. Unfortunately, he never seems to get around to it. I get too busy to keep writing these myself, or am just lazy and want to chill out rather than do anything some days.
So onto MY list of reasons homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry and the weaknesses of each argument.
1. God says no.
Problem #1:
I haven't heard from God lately, have you? Maybe you should get scanned for a brain tumor. But seriously, we don't have his word we have...
2. The Bible says its an abomination.
Problem #1:
The Bible is a book written by man and transcribed and translated by man from the word of God. Therefore, it is bound to be full of the failings of man. Some of those are simple errors in transcription and translation. Others are failures in our knowledge of the world in which we live. An example would be bats being included as a type of bird or avian rather than as flying mammals. Search Leviticus and Deuteronomy for this. Also, knowing man I wouldn't put it beyond anyone to have introduced a few things to the good book on their own. We should be aware that the Bible was assembled from a collection of texts many years after the death of Christ. Some early versions contain books that never entered the mainstream while others were left out entirely.
Problem #2:
Modern science seems indicate that the origin of homosexuality is biological in nature. This would mean you just are or you aren't homosexual. This would make one think that it is likely God made them that way. This would then lead a rational person to wonder why God would make humans who are abominations and then demand that they be other than what he made them and that we should hate/persecute them for being what they are. Maybe he really just doesn't like some people or maybe this is just one of those parts like the bat. I'm sorry, I mean bird.
Problem #3:
Logic also seems to indicate homosexuality is not a choice since no rational person would choose to be homosexual given that they are horribly persecuted.
3. The institution of marriage is under attack and will no longer be what it is supposed to be, between a man and a woman.
Problem #1:
It used to be between one man and multiple women according to the Bible. So obviously the institution has changed in the few thousand years its been around. Although I still think there are a few Mormons and some Muslims that are trying to revive the old ways. There may have even been an African culture in which women had multiple husbands!
Problem #2:
Divorce is a new thing too. I think Henry the VIII started it. Something about loping off the heads of his wives. So yet again the instution doth change.
Problem #3:
Ok, we'll grant you that marriage between some people won't be the same i.e. a lot of gay men and some lesbians getting married, man:man, woman:woman type stuff will definitely be new.The institution still has its basic features even between homosexual couples. They look after each other, care for one another in sickness and in health, love each other, raise children together, and still get divorced on occasion. It doesn't constitute an attack on anyone else's marriage or the basic idea of marriage. The only thing that changes is the homogenization of the sexes between the couples. My parents aren't any less married just because some Mormons marry more than one wife. Neither are they any less married because two men or two women get hitched.
4. Gay marriage will deteriorate or otherwise crap on the fabric of society leading it into a cesspool of immorality.
Problem #1:
Immorality is variable between religions. Hence why multiple wives is frowned upon outside of certain Mormon and Muslim sects. It still doesn't mean they are any less married. Heck, a lot of inlaws frown upon their daughter and son inlaws marriages. They might even be freaking out that they had a Hindu wedding or a Jewish wedding. It doesn't make them any less married either. Since immorality is subjective, as well as wedding ceremonies, it makes sense to say this is a problem some people have WITH gay marriage rather than a problem of gay marriage. Probably because of their own religious beliefs. Gay marriage itself therefore can't actually cause immorality because it isn't the one that owns the problem.
Problem #2:
I'm not going to become gay just because other people are doing it. Are you? I don't think so. So how exactly is it supposed to lead the rest of us into a cesspool of immorality?
5. Its not real love or God doesn't recognize it as marriage.
Problem #1:
Since we have no objective way to determine what love is we'll just have to take their word for it. I can't tell if you really love someone either.
Problem #2:
What qualifications does a marriage have to have in order to be recognized by God? Do I have to have a priest? Then all the people who go to the justice of the peace aren't real marriages. Does it have to be a traditional ceremony of some sort? Then Hindu, Muslim, and pagan marriages are out.
Problem #3:
Zues, Shiva, and the Great Spirit might feel otherwise about your marriage too. In order to say someone's marriage isn't real you first have to have the right deity and from the looks of it you have a 1 in a few thousand chance of getting that right let alone knowing what that deity actually thinks. Don't you just love the complexity of ancient pantheons?
6. Gay marriages aren't good for the kids.
Problem #1:
Being gay or lesbian does not mean you automatically abuse children sexually or otherwise. So there is nothing bad going to happen to the kids in that way that couldn't also happen in a heterosexual marriage.
Problem #2:
Research on issues regarding the development of children in same sex households is very limited so one is making this claim without any proof.
Now that I've put forth some of the arguments I've heard on the subject maybe some of the one man one woman supporters out there can try and plug the holes and come up with an argument that actually adds up.