Rogue One teaser trailer

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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Caesar on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:51 pm

a) kain has an extra copy of a certain chromosome

b) Darth Vader was not, is not, and never will be evil. There is zero arguing this.

c)
While the imperials weren't exactly brainwashed, they also never had a choice, they just did whatever the emperor wanted them to. That is by the way why just killing the emperor meant that the rebels have won.
The empire in itself isn't evil or good, it just happened to be lead by 2 Sith Lords.


Onasi nailing it

You have no arguments. The empire was not entirely evil. One individual was evil (sidious).


PRO TIP: when you teach English class, avoid Ad Hominem arguments. They are very weak and very unprofessional.

GG
Last edited by Caesar on Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Magyk on Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:56 pm

It baffles me why you keep trying to argue against the straight up fact that the Empire is the embodiment of evil, and the Rebels are the white-knight counterpart. At no point during this discussion have I ever stated that "everyone in the Empire must be evil!" I direct you to my original post, "Are you trying to tell me that in the context of the Star Wars universe the Rebels are not good and the Empire is not evil?" and my intent is made pretty clear. You're literally trying to rearrange my words to "everyone in the Empire including the janitors were evil!"

Ten seconds into the first film, the Empire is called "evil" by the opening crawl. The crawl is not penned by a character, and it's about as close to an omniscient narrator as you can possibly get.

Was Dave the Death Star Janitor evil? I suppose he might not have been. Was the Emperor, Darth Vader, Grand Moff Tarkin, General Veers, the regional governors (who Tarkin states control their territories with pure power of fear), the blindly murdering storm troopers who did their killing outside the field of battle (ie: the ones that killed the jawa's, Luke's family, etc) and basically every other named on-screen baddie evil? Yep.

There are countless examples of Imperials not doing "whatever the emperor wanted them to" in the movies and EU. That's a stupid argument. Those involved with the Empire very much had a choice when it came to being "good" or "evil" and still being aligned with the Empire. The majority just chose to stay and commit atrocities despite knowing their actions were wrong. (Movie example: Biggs Darklighter attended the Imperial Academy before defecting to the Alliance, EU example: Kyle Katarn was a decorated Stormtrooper before defecting to the Alliance.)


As an aside, and not a discussion I'm getting into because you're too stupid to even handle this simple conversation, it's absolutely debatable that "Darth Vader was not, is not, and never will be evil." There are various examples in the films that show Darth Vader and Anakin to be distinct and independent from one another. Sith persona essentially "masks" the real person. Darth, Kylo Ren, and even Palatine are all examples of this happening. When "Darth" is redeemed at the end of RotJ it is only because Anakin Skywalker shows his true colors again and breaks through that mask. So you're wrong in saying that there is "zero arguing this" because there is very much a reasonable argument to be made about Darth being strictly evil. Oh, and much like the Empire - George Lucas made it a point to define Darth Vader as "evil" in the Star Wars screenplay. Straight from the horse's mouth.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Caesar on Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:41 pm

At no point during this discussion have I ever stated that "everyone in the Empire must be evil!" I direct you to my original post, "Are you trying to tell me that in the context of the Star Wars universe the Rebels are not good and the Empire is not evil?" and my intent is made pretty clear.


If we look at the movies with a third-grade mentality, then yea, you are 100% percent correct. In that case, all three movies are about the bad guys versus the good guys, and in the end, they all lived happily ever after. Never mind the political undertones, historical references, and character development. Fuck that right? Way too complicated. Looking at the movie as good versus evil, is like viewing Huck Finn (and practically every other Mark Twain novel) as an adventure story. BETTER YET, it is like reading Lord of the Rings as good versus evil.

You're literally trying to rearrange my words


You are very adept at this, actually.

I choose to watch the movies with a collegiate/adult mentality and a) draw parallels b) make inferences c) analyze characters d) look for political undertones. All of my (and Onasi's) previous points stand, IF you choose to watch the movies with an adult mindset.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby schrute on Sun May 01, 2016 12:51 pm

Caesar wrote:
At no point during this discussion have I ever stated that "everyone in the Empire must be evil!" I direct you to my original post, "Are you trying to tell me that in the context of the Star Wars universe the Rebels are not good and the Empire is not evil?" and my intent is made pretty clear.


If we look at the movies with a third-grade mentality, then yea, you are 100% percent correct. In that case, all three movies are about the bad guys versus the good guys, and in the end, they all lived happily ever after. Never mind the political undertones, historical references, and character development. Fuck that right? Way too complicated. Looking at the movie as good versus evil, is like viewing Huck Finn (and practically every other Mark Twain novel) as an adventure story. BETTER YET, it is like reading Lord of the Rings as good versus evil.

You're literally trying to rearrange my words


You are very adept at this, actually.

I choose to watch the movies with a collegiate/adult mentality and a) draw parallels b) make inferences c) analyze characters d) look for political undertones. All of my (and Onasi's) previous points stand, IF you choose to watch the movies with an adult mindset.


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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby schrute on Sun May 01, 2016 9:27 pm

i) Palpatine is the evil one, not the collective empire. Calling the empire evil is like calling all Middle Eastern citizens terrorists


This analogy makes no sense. A more fitting analogy would be that the leader of ISIS is evil but the members of the organization are not.

Also saying that Darth Vader wasn't evil is kind of awkward. Was killing 2 billion peaceful citizens on Alderaan just a prank bro?
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Magyk on Mon May 02, 2016 11:41 am

I choose to watch the movies with a collegiate/adult mentality and a) draw parallels b) make inferences c) analyze characters d) look for political undertones.


You must be real fun at parties.

This is my last post on the matter, because honestly I'm just getting sick of reading your bullshit and we're clearly never going to agree.

Yes, I have a third-grade mentality because I don't view every movie with laser swords and spaceships and wise little green aliens through an analytical lens.

In fact, I don't know why anyone would view a film through an analytical lens unless it pertained to some form of academic project, or to reverse engineer a film for some kind of Hollywood production job.

Normal human beings, apparently you're not included in this, watch films to escape. To forget, pretend, fantasize, imagine - to get a break from reality. To leave their body and find immersion in a world where different things are possible, choices can be made because they are the right choices and not the logical ones, and where the constraints - all constraints be they scientific, societal, what have you - do not apply. Where we can watch a story about good and evil in a galaxy far, far away unfold.

So, sure, if watching a movie for its intended purpose makes me a third grader. Fine. I'm a third grader. Congratulations, dude. You win. I'd rather be a third grader who enjoyed the movie with laser swords than stuck in a world where I have to have my brain set to "analyze" 24/7. That's what I do all day at college and it's tiring as shit. I just want to watch my movie with laser swords.

I'm sure you really blew everybody's nips off with your big brains in this topic, maybe you can figure out how to install custom maps now.

Edit: Also, not you or Onasi ever responded to the plain and simple fact that the first line in the movie straight up tells us, the audience, that the Empire is an "evil Galactic Empire" lol.

Also, pro-tip: don't tell people to not yews ad hominems in the same post where you begin by using an ad hominem.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Caesar on Mon May 02, 2016 8:19 pm

This analogy makes no sense. A more fitting analogy would be that the leader of ISIS is evil but the members of the organization are not.

Also saying that Darth Vader wasn't evil is kind of awkward. Was killing 2 billion peaceful citizens on Alderaan just a prank bro?


It makes sense. The whole topic is in regards to stereotyping, specifically stereotyping the entire Empire as evil. In other words, labeling an entire entity based on the actions of an individual. Some innately assume every Middle Eastern Citizen is a terrorist. Magyk assumed every (or most) member of the empire is evil. It is unclear if nuking Alderaan was Darth's idea. I would be willing to bet money it was Palpatine's. Darth was simply along for the ride.

Normal human beings, apparently you're not included in this, watch films to escape. To forget, pretend, fantasize, imagine - to get a break from reality. To leave their body and find immersion in a world where different things are possible, choices can be made because they are the right choices and not the logical ones, and where the constraints - all constraints be they scientific, societal, what have you - do not apply. Where we can watch a story about good and evil in a galaxy far, far away unfold.

So, sure, if watching a movie for its intended purpose makes me a third grader. Fine. I'm a third grader. Congratulations, dude. You win. I'd rather be a third grader who enjoyed the movie with laser swords than stuck in a world where I have to have my brain set to "analyze" 24/7. That's what I do all day at college and it's tiring as shit. I just want to watch my movie with laser swords.



True. I don't watch movies exclusively for analysis. For the purposes of this argument, I asserted that watching Star Wars with an analytical eye, could change your point of view. You don't have to. Just realize there might be more than one argument if viewed differently.

Edit: Also, not you or Onasi ever responded to the plain and simple fact that the first line in the movie straight up tells us, the audience, that the Empire is an "evil Galactic Empire" lol.


A whole is made of parts. The empire is millions of parts. If several (or in this case, one, maybe two) parts are evil, the whole entity is viewed as evil. This has no bearing on the state of the parts. The parts are independent of the whole.

Also, pro-tip: don't tell people to not yews ad hominems in the same post where you begin by using an ad hominem.


I wasn't really arguing with kane, as he was completely irrelevant, but point taken.

This is my last post on the matter, because honestly I'm just getting sick of reading your bullshit and we're clearly never going to agree.


I do hope you realize you will have students just like me. Hell, you will have students who will argue with the fact that 2+2=4. Agree to disagree and move on.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby schrute on Mon May 02, 2016 9:50 pm

Caesar wrote:
This analogy makes no sense. A more fitting analogy would be that the leader of ISIS is evil but the members of the organization are not.

Also saying that Darth Vader wasn't evil is kind of awkward. Was killing 2 billion peaceful citizens on Alderaan just a prank bro?



Hard to be "along for the ride" when you're talking about killing 2 billion innocent people. That's not really "meh, it will all work out in the end :)" kind of actions. Especially when you have as much power and influence as Vader did.
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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby Turquoise Dragon on Mon May 02, 2016 11:11 pm

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Re: Rogue One teaser trailer

Postby schrute on Tue May 03, 2016 9:19 am

Turquoise Dragon wrote:
focus.JPG


There's a difference between killing innocent civilians and killing those who are working on the largest weapon in the universe, especially when they have shown that they are not afraid to yews this weapon on innocent civilians.

This is like if North Korea nuked the US, and the US responded by blowing up their nuclear silo and people responded by "think of the innocent workers who manned this silo that just killed millions of innocent people!!"
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