Thoughts on new US healthcare bill?

[Kerafym]

Socialized healthcare doesn't equate to long wait times. That's a myth.

firsthand accounts say it's fact.

Firsthand accounts say it's bullshit.

[Maximus]

It depends on what the care is, of course. Getting antibiotics might be faster under a socialist system, or getting xrays, or anything quick and easy. Particularly something that's not expensive. Something that is complex and expensive, however, is much more likely to be in demand (due to scarcity of care, not of prevalence of occurrence) and have much longer waiting lines.

Basically it works like this. Government has $x to provide health care for the whole country. Say $1 trillion to make an easy example. That's all the money they're going to get.
So say an antibiotics prescription costs $100... plenty of money for those, you can hand them out like candy if you like. No paperwork, no bs, just pass some pills and the sick person goes on their way, happy and presumably cured in a few days.
Say an X-ray costs $1000. Might need to be a little more judicious with ordering those.
Say open heart surgery costs $600,000. That's the cost of 6,000 bottles of pills or 600 xrays. Suddenly the cost of the operation becomes prohibitive. You're denying thousands of other people the care they need to save one life.

The problem with socialized medicine (and socialist policy in general) is that it is inherently utilitarian and places no inherent value on persons beyond their value to the good of society, as very clearly stated by Marx et al. It is a simple cost/benefit calculation. Effectively a dollar value is put on the life of individuals, and once the cost of their care becomes prohibitive (as it does to the majority of the population as they reach the final 5 years of life), the cost/benefit calculation suggests you give the cost-causer a big dose of morphine and make them go away.

While we naturally feel sorry for those who cannot afford health insurance and would like to provide basic care for all, an institutionalized and universal system will inevitably raise costs of good quality private care while placing limits on the publicly available care that, in every attempt thus far, people find unsatisfactory.

It is morally questionable to create a system designed to disregard individual worth. It is a value system that is fundamentally opposed to our Constitution. Under a capitalist economy with limited government, the way this country was founded to be, all things not specifically stated in the constitution as rights are not rights but rather privileges, and free health care is one of them. In our generally altruistic but sometimes misguided compassion, we need to be careful not to destroy the foundation that makes this country worth living in while trying to keep the people in it living.

[Helaku]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

:thumbs up:

[Magyk]

@Helaku - You can agree with Kera all you want, see how much I care. When I said stop being his lapdog, I was referring to the comments such as "I don't argue with Kera, cause he's never wrong!" It isn't cute, it isn't funny.

@Kain- In reference to the Michael Jordan comment, he has earned that money. If you were in his shoes, would you want the govt. digging around in your pockets taking away that money from you, to give it to someone too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. (I'm all for helping out the disabled, etc, just not the lazy.)

[Kerafym]

@Helaku - You can agree with Kera all you want, see how much I care. When I said stop being his lapdog, I was referring to the comments such as "I don't argue with Kera, cause he's never wrong!" It isn't cute, it isn't funny.

@Kain- In reference to the Michael Jordan comment, he has earned that money. If you were in his shoes, would you want the govt. digging around in your pockets taking away that money from you, to give it to someone too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. (I'm all for helping out the disabled, etc, just not the lazy.)

Because everybody who's without a job and not disabled is lazy, right?

[Maximus]

In reference to the Michael Jordan comment, he has earned that money.

I would take some amount of issue with that. "Earned" is a strong word for being offered millions of dollars to have one's picture associated with a product. He may have worked hard to get good at the game, but the value of that to society is debatable. He makes far more money and does far less good for society than doctors, teachers, police etc.

If you were in his shoes, would you want the govt. digging around in your pockets taking away that money from you, to give it to someone too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. (I'm all for helping out the disabled, etc, just not the lazy.)

As a general principle I'm inclined to agree; however, considering my previous statement, I don't lose much sleep over the fact that the taxes may go to something more practical than Michael's 18th Rolls-Royce. Not that the government won't just waste the money in an equally frivolous manner, but if taxes have to come from somewhere, they may as well come from funds otherwise used for obscene luxuries.

[Darth_Wayne]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

We know.

[Helaku]

@Helaku - You can agree with Kera all you want, see how much I care. When I said stop being his lapdog, I was referring to the comments such as "I don't argue with Kera, cause he's never wrong!" It isn't cute, it isn't funny.

@Kain- In reference to the Michael Jordan comment, he has earned that money. If you were in his shoes, would you want the govt. digging around in your pockets taking away that money from you, to give it to someone too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. (I'm all for helping out the disabled, etc, just not the lazy.)

Because everybody who's without a job and not disabled is lazy, right?

Sorry, trk, but

OWNT_NAP_LOL

Btw, Magyk, that quote is bad...I most likely said 'Kerafym is always right! I will work harder!'
but it could be that it says 'Napoleon' instead of 'Kerafym'...
That's a quote from Eric Arthur Blair's book 'Animal Farm-A fairy story'
the author ISN'T politically oriented, and neither is the book. A literature I HIGHLY RECOMMEND reading, you primarily.

That may open your eyes and make you see the world from a LARGER point of view.

[Turky]

@Helaku - You can agree with Kera all you want, see how much I care. When I said stop being his lapdog, I was referring to the comments such as "I don't argue with Kera, cause he's never wrong!" It isn't cute, it isn't funny.

@Kain- In reference to the Michael Jordan comment, he has earned that money. If you were in his shoes, would you want the govt. digging around in your pockets taking away that money from you, to give it to someone too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. (I'm all for helping out the disabled, etc, just not the lazy.)

Because everybody who's without a job and not disabled is lazy, right?

Sorry, trk, but

OWNT_NAP_LOL

that was magyk suz...

now the proper form:

OWNT_NAP_LOL

[Helaku]

That 'sorry' was for jacking your bind, using them on magyk, not the way you understood it